Friday, February 29, 2008

Leap Day

HEY EVERYBODY, IT'S LEAP DAY!!! YAY, LEAP DAY!! It'ssssss...ummm...leap day?!? Err...ahhh, yeah, leap day...

Anyhoo, so, leap day, yeah, great, fantastic...see you in another 4 years oh fabulous leap day.

Tuesday, February 26, 2008

False Negative 2: My SECOND Ebay Dispute

I guess I should consider myself lucky. I've been on ebay since 2000, and have had little problems with buyers or sellers. You might recall I had my first Ebay dispute awhile back (if not, read this: False Negative).

Well, I just had my second Ebay dispute, and, if you have the time, I would love to share the story with you.

I was selling a few records on Ebay, and everything was going smooth. People would win and pay me, I would ship out. They would receive their item, positive feedback was left, and everything was fine. Until "Kentucky" emailed me a couple weeks after the auctions had ended. The email was short and sweet:

I bought your item and was wanting to know if you have shipped it yet, and when.

I emailed him back right away and told him I shipped the package out the same day I left him feedback (which was January 22nd...I even said in the feedback that the LP's are on the way...)

His response...and even more curt:

You need to go to the post office and find out why I haven't gotten my package.

Excuse me? I need to what?? I tried to compose myself, as I wrote back explaining I took the package to the post office, mailed it Priority Mail, and that was the end of it. I couldn't do anything else because there was no way to track a package that had no tracking on it. It was, I tried to explain, like putting a letter in your mailbox. Once it's gone, it's gone. You have to have faith the post office will get it to it's destination.

I thought this would appease "Kentucky", but obviously, it did not. He responded: (and I apologize for the spelling errors, I wanted to keep his emails exactly as he sent them to me...)

You do not understand, when a package is shipped priority, the is a paper trail. That crap of there is nothing more you can do won't fly here. I need your input so I can file a complaint with the US Postal inspectors. Mail theft is a serious crime, and they are serious about it. So is mail fraud.

Either you come up with proof you sent the package, or refund my money. If you do neither, I will be in contact with the proper athorties.

This is not MY problem, it is YOUR problem. Please note that the package was sent to a post office box. The package was never delivered, so it was stolen while in the care and coustody of the SUPS, or it was never sent. Remember, they also have a COMPLETE COPY of ALL the transactions that took place that day. Still I find it hard to believe that someone with 600 feedback has not learned to keep reciepts.

Anyway, YOU need to go down to the Post Office, or I will go down to the Federal Building and talk to a US Postal Inspectors.


Holy cow! I felt like he was attacking me, and I did NOT like it. I responded:

With all due respect, I do not appreciate the manner in which you are speaking to me. Please refrain from accusations if you do not have the facts correct. I am a long standing member of the Ebay community, and to accuse me of mail fraud is serious slander and I do not appreciate that.

With that being said, I work in a mailroom and have access to a postage machine here. I weighed, mailed, and took the package to the post office and dropped it off. No receipts. You can ALWAYS send Priority mail WITHOUT A RECEIPT. All you have to have is the proper postage. You could put it out in your regular house pickup if you wanted. You don’t have to have a receipt.

So, thusly, I recommend you go and talk to your USPS Post Master and get a lesson on how things work before you decide to falsely attack my credibility again.

I am sorry, as I said, there is nothing else I can do.


That didn't work, either. His reponse:

I can not insure aganst the seller not sending it. Like i said, if the item was mailed prioity, THERE IS A PAPER TRAIL.

You may not like my tone, but you are the one who can not prove shipment has taken place, and you are telling me tough luck.

That is not the way it works. you may be a trusted member of the community, but you are human and humans make mistkes. the greatst mistake is to assume you are infallible.

I paid with paypal.
It was to sent to a CONFIRMED address, where there is no record of the package.
You need to prove shipment or paypal will rule in my favor. PERIOD.

I urge you to rethink your position.


He urged me to rethink my position?? My position is I didn't do anything wrong!! There was nothing more I could say, so I responded:

I gave you the only thing I could to prove that I mailed it, and that is my word. I don't know what more you are asking me to do. I never had a receipt, because there was no receipt, PERIOD.

I will not change my position, because I am not in the wrong, no matter what you say. I mailed the item. I mailed it, I mailed it!! Send me a link to a page on USPS that says there is a paper trail with Priority Mail and I'll apologize, but there is none.

Please understand, I could assume (like you are assuming) that you are trying to rip me off. But I do not believe you are. I believe that the USPS made a mistake, and that makes them fallible, not me. I did what I was suppose to! And, also, please understand that my hands are tied. However you want to me scream it, there literally is nothing I can do.

This is getting us nowhere, file if you must. Like I said, Priority Mail doesn't necessarily have a paper trail. Certified, Registered, Delivery Confirmation all do...Priority is just regular mail that is suppose to get there faster. No paper trail, I'm sorry, but no.

File with Paypal, let them sort it out.


And file he did. He immediately filed a claim with Paypal, and they contacted me. His side of the story was:

I paid for the item, used my confirmed shipping address which is a US Post Office Box. The package was never deliverd, according to the seller, it was sent. The package was never out of the hands of the USPS.Seller tells me there is nothing more I can do.I want ebays help to prosecute fraud complaint.

I tried to not break my computer reading that last line "I want ebays help to prosecute fraud complaint." Everything else was fine and truthful...but he wants to prosecute? Give me a break. I added my side of the story:

"Kentucky" emailed me regarding this lost package, and his information as stated below is correct. He did pay for the item on January 20th, and I mailed the package to his PO Box on January 22nd via USPS Priority Mail(at this time, as is customary for me, I left him positive ebay feedback which states his package was in the mail.) The buyer did not purchase Insurance, did not ask for Delivery Confirmation, did not purchase Registered or Certified mail, or any other traceable method. Therefore, as I tried numerous times to inform the buyer, there is no way to track this package to see what happened to it. Simply put, there is nothing more I, or anyone can do. The package is lost, and while I am sorry about that, my hands are completely tied. "Kentucky" then proceeded to slander my name and reputation as a honest member of the Ebay community by accusing me of mail fraud, claiming that I must have not sent the package, because I have no "paper trail" proving I sent the package. I tried to explain to the buyer that you don't necessarily have a paper trail with Priority mail, you can, in fact, put the correct number of stamps on the package and send it from your home for example. I work in a mailroom, so I posted the package myself and delivered it to the post office with various other parcels and mail pieces from my company, none of which turned up missing besides "Kentucky's" package. Like I said, he paid, I sent, the Post Office must have lost. Why would I risk my reputation by ripping "Kentucky" off for 11.50??

Oh, I didn't mention the records he bought only cost $11.50? Well, they did, and I would have probably just gave him his money back...but it was the principle of the situation. I wanted to teach him a lesson about being nicer to people, instead of attacking them.

His second Paypal response:

Try to see things from my point of view,
I bid on auction,
I won auction,
I paid for auction,
I never recieved auction,
Seller tells me he can not prove shipment was made. Seller says thats it. What would you do if this happened to you? Bid, Win, Pay, where is it?
My Tough Luck?


My follow up:

Try to see things from my point of view,

I posted item,

I sold item,

I shipped item.

Where is my merchandise??

Do I get that back if I refund your money? No.

So, you're telling me that if the post office loses something I should be out the merchandise, but you shouldn't be out of your money?

This wouldn't happen to me, because I would have PURCHASED INSURANCE ON THE ITEM! Then you would be able to: 1. Track the item. 2. File a claim with the USPS for a lost parcel. You need to understand that this is not my fault.

We both loose. This isn't just about you, please understand that. I cannot prove it was shipped, just like you cannot prove that you didn't receive the package. I believe we are both honest people, and that isn't the case, but can't you see the dilemma? Millions of people send mail every day, and the post office is bound to mess up once in awhile. We both fulfilled our end of the transaction. You paid, I shipped. At that point it is simply out of our hands. At this point we have to rely on a middle man. That middle man, the USPS, dropped the ball.

There is nothing else that can be said.

Neither one of US are at fault. If the shoe was on the other foot, I wouldn't blame you, I would be disappointed, as I am sure you are, but I wouldn't blame you because I know it wouldn't have been your fault.

I'm not going to change my mind on this. We could go around in circles forever on this, but it's getting us nowhere. At this time, I am going to escalate the claim to a dispute because I feel we are never going to see eye to eye on the matter.


I probably shouldn't have jumped the gun, but I was tired of arguing. I escalated the claim to a dispute, just so Paypal would sort things out, and I would be done with this stupidity. How could I possibly loose this case?? After I escalated the dispute, I added my defense:

I think everything is spelled out in the dispute conversations between the buyer and I. The facts, which I don't believe either of us are disputing, are this: He won my auction and paid on January 20th. I shipped his item on January 22nd. At that point I left positive feedback noting that his item was on the way. I shipped the package via USPS Priority Mail. Since I work in a mailroom, I was able to post the item on my personal postage machine and take the mail to the post office with my business's bulk mail. This is a common practice for me. I mailed several piece out that day, and other mail arrived, so I believe this to be an unfortunate, isolated misplacement of his package by the USPS. Priority mail CAN be sent without a receipt, because I do it all the time. Therefore, I have no proof besides my 600+ unique positive feedback rating to back up my claim that I am an honest seller who would not risk his reputation by scamming someone for 11.50.

The seller and I could not amicably work this out, as he immediately decided to attack my credibility and attempted to slander my reputation by claiming in email correspondence that I purposefully committed mail fraud. I did not appreciate the vicious attacks, so I am escalating this dispute to a claim myself because I do not believe he can be reasoned with, and I do not believe that I am in the wrong.

He paid, I shipped, the USPS lost the package. He did not ask for, or purchase Insurance, Certified or Registered Mail, or Delivery Confirmation. I am sorry his package is lost, but it was by no fault of mine. I have all the email correspondences between the buyer and I if you need them.


And then, I waited. After a few days, I checked in on my Paypal dispute, and the status was "Waiting for seller's response." Since I had already left a response, I felt like maybe Paypal was unaware that I (as the seller) escalated the claim instead of the buyer, as would be customary. So, I called them.

Paypal: "Thank you for calling Paypal Dispute Resolution, how can I help you?"

Me: "I had a claim brought against me, and I escalated it to a dispute. The status says "waiting for seller to respond" and I already did. I don't want you guys to rule against me because you think I didn't respond.

Paypal: "You, as the seller, have to click on the respond now button."

Me: "Yes, I did that, and the only options are...1. Provide tracking information. 2. Provide a refund. or 3. Provide proof of a refund. I don't want to do any of those things."

Paypal: "You don't have tracking information?"

Me: "No, I sent it Priority Mail...no tracking."

Paypal: "Well, then, you are going to loose this claim."

Me: "...what?"

Paypal: "The buyer has Buyer's Protection, which means if the seller cannot prove he sent the item, then he is at fault and will loose the claim. If you have tracking information, you will never, ever loose a claim."

Me: "So, you are telling me I can go right now on Ebay, but something for $5,000, pay for the item, and if the guy doesn't ship it a traceable way, I can just say I didn't get it, EVEN IF I DID, and he would have to give me my money back, and I could keep the item??"

Paypal: "Yes. If he didn't ship it a traceable way, that is right."

Me: "That is a bunch of crap...ok, whatever, thanks..."

I was shocked, and defeated. How could that be? I would think that if he didn't pay for it to be traced, it would be his fault!! But, no. The Paypal man said "buying insurance or a traceable method is for the SELLER'S protection, not the BUYER'S."

I waited, like the Paypal guy told me, until my third notice to give information, and then, also on the Paypal guy's recommendation, I provided a tracking number of 0000000000000 saying that I shipped it Priority Mail and had no tracking number. The paypal guy explained to me that I should just "put something in there, because usually the package shows up eventually and that would buy some time."

Paypal emailed me and said the dispute was in mediation, and they would contact us both when they decided who was in the right. I knew I was going down, but I wasn't going to concede. I also felt sick to my stomach that I was going to have to eat crow and pay this joker back, and I wanted to wait as long as possible before that happened.

A few weeks past, and I got a response from Paypal:

We have completed our investigation of this case. The buyer has notified us that an amicable resolution has been reached. This case has been closed. No further action is required of you at this time.

Huh, the case has been closed? Amicable resolution?? At this point, I wasn't sure what was going on, so I checked my email, and saw there was an email from "Kentucky." It was the most articulate email I had received yet, it read:

The package came yesterday. When I opened the box and saw what it was, I went directly to the window and pointed out that it came that day (2-22) and pointed out that it was postmarked 1-22, and it had been shipped priority.

The clerk was sorry, but there were no explainations.

In the last two years, all the unfunded mandates of the present adminstration have created long lines, and lower quality service in the Postal System. I have sold via the US mail for a number of years, and this latest experience has made me re-think my own shipping practices.

I am sorry it happened, I feel I did the right thing. The package could have easily been lost behind the back seat. We are all human.

Feedback is coming next


At this point, I was just overjoyed that he got the dang package, and I didn't have to pay him back. I was still uneasy that he didn't apologize for the accusations, but, like I said, I was glad it was over, and decided I didn't need to have the last word, so I left it alone. Later that day, I got the biggest shock of the whole ordeal when I saw what he gave me for feedback.

Positive Feedback: Very best kind of eBayer, easy transaction, fastest shipment, HIGHLY RECOMENDED!

After a month of back and forth, a Paypal claim and dispute, and a package that arrived a month late, he says "easy transaction"?? "Fastest shipment"??

Maybe that was his apology.

(Editor's Note: I did email him again, and thanked him for the feedback and told him I was glad the package arrived to him. I was going to tell him to quit being a meanie, but I decided to leave it alone.)